Cavaliers acquire Antawn Jamison for Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Draft Pick
by John Bena (aka CavsBlogger) on Feb 17, 2010 5:55 PM CST
in Roster Moves
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PrintThe Cavaliers finally got their man. Antawn Jamison has been a target of Danny Ferry for a long time. He provides the Cavaliers that 'stretch-4' that most experts think they need to win a NBA Championship. He's now a Cavalier.
The Cavs completed a 3-team, 6-player trade with the Washington Wizards and Los Angeles Clippers that saw the Cavaliers acquire Jamison from the Wizards and PG Sebastian Telfair from the Clippers. It will cost the Cavaliers Zydrunas Ilgauskas and their 1st Round pick in the 2010 draft.
This is a great move by Ferry and the Cavaliers. All along I have wanted Jamison, but not at the cost of losing J.J. Hickson. Jamison is nearing the end of his career while Hickson's is just starting to bloom. This allows the Cavaliers to acquire that could very well push them over the top in search of a Championship without trading away any of their core players.
Here's a look at the deal in its entirety -
CLEVELAND GETS
F Antawn Jamison(WAS)
PG Sebastian Telfair(LAC)
WASHINGTON GETS
C Zydrunas Ilgauskas(CLE)
F Al Thornton
1st Round Pick(CLE)
Rights to Emil Preldzic(CLE)
LOS ANGELES GETS
F Drew Gooden(WAS)
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Adrian Wojnarowski
Has Sebastian Telfair coming here along with Jamison. Only giving up Z and a 1st rounder.
If that’s it i LOVE it!
Tomorrow?
I wonder if that’s enough time to get him on the court tomorrow? I hope he can.
I wouldn't be surprised
If Z got bought out.
Really nice trade for the Cavs…
"I want people to fear me"- Derrick Rose.
Wow
What a steal for Cleveland.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
That’s saying it. How in the world did we escape with Hickson in-tact?!!
by Western Reserve on Feb 17, 2010 6:30 PM CST up reply actions
because washington already got cap relief by trading butler, so they figured they might as well make some more room with this trade. figured they might as well get it done when they could. Steve Kerr looks like an idiot now.
I’m so disappointed. Jamison’s contract is for two years. Now even if we win a championship this year we stand to gain JACK SH*T over the summer. In fact we lose shaq unless we resign him. We will be in the race but this is gone be a 1 and done championship this year if* we win. :(
~Jesus~
Wow
thats a depressing outlook. You’re assuming a lot that can be fixed with another trade of the parts you didn’t even have to get rid of.
Cavs couldn't wait any longer...
The Suns just weren’t going to budge. They are a playoff team and I don’t think Kerr could, in his right mind, simply GIVE Amare away.
As for Jamison, I’m sick of the deals that ALMOST happen that could put us over the edge. The Cavaliers are trying to win a Championship THIS YEAR. Kudos for getting the guy that can help them do that without giving away the core of the team.
FTS
SBNation's Cleveland Cavaliers Blogger
by John Bena (aka CavsBlogger) on Feb 17, 2010 6:27 PM CST up reply actions
Question for you Mr. Bena: Do you think the Cavs will trade Wally and JJ for Amare? The cost still wouldn’t be very high, and if the Suns are looking to cut salary, the Cavs still look like the best suitor…
I think the Heat...
become the front runner for Amare. The Suns liked the positioning of the Heat’s draft picks, which could be a lottery selection, more that the Cavaliers. It is worth the dream, however, that the Cavaliers could somehow get both…
FTS
SBNation's Cleveland Cavaliers Blogger
by John Bena (aka CavsBlogger) on Feb 17, 2010 6:32 PM CST up reply actions
It is worth the dream, however, that the Cavaliers could somehow get both…
I’m sorry, but I can’t imagine this in anyway logically plausible, whatsoever.
Well, just for the sake of arguement, lets say the Cavs offer up JJ, Danny Green, and make up the rest of the contract with Wally World’s contract. Technically, it should be just as good as Z’s. Is it likely? No. Possible? Sure. Either way, I’m just thankful we got someone. Welcome to Cleveland, Mr. Jamison!
I think the Heat are looking for a 3rd team to complete the Amar’e deal and get the same amount cash for Phoenix that Z would have gotten. This seems the most likely situation right now.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Feb 17, 2010 6:56 PM CST up reply actions
So were you in favor of Amar’e? Just how was that of longer-term benefit?
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Feb 17, 2010 6:34 PM CST up reply actions
We weren’t going to have any cap room to sign any free agents over the summer even before the trade, so I don’t know what your problem is with this trade.
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 17, 2010 10:11 PM CST up reply actions
im just curious as to the wether or not they do bring Z bac if he gets bought out. I mean they don’t technically need him now. Verajao will move into backup on depth behind shaq and with powe returning that gives us 3 guys at the 4 spot. I since another trade perhaps using hickson and moon as bargaining chips if not i know the cavs organization appreciates Z and what he has done but business is business. I hope he comes bac tho.
I think it very likely he returns…
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Feb 17, 2010 6:30 PM CST up reply actions
Funny...
I was thinking the same thing. I am very concerned about his state of mind – he didn’t handle the DNP very well earlier this season(can’t blame him, though). That said, I think he would return….
FTS
SBNation's Cleveland Cavaliers Blogger
by John Bena (aka CavsBlogger) on Feb 17, 2010 6:31 PM CST up reply actions
Hopefully the Cavs had reassured him before the trade
that they will want him back if it does occur.
by inquisitiveman on Feb 17, 2010 6:40 PM CST up reply actions
Oh I have no doubt they afforded him that consideration.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Feb 17, 2010 6:54 PM CST up reply actions
Some overall thoughts on this trade;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUyYace8318
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
Well done.
FTS
SBNation's Cleveland Cavaliers Blogger
by John Bena (aka CavsBlogger) on Feb 17, 2010 6:31 PM CST up reply actions
wow..
Really?? Well..uhh..congrated i guess
by Kobe Won Kenobi on Feb 17, 2010 6:32 PM CST via mobile reply actions
congrated i guess
by Kobe Won Kenobi on Feb 17, 2010 7:32 PM EST
I meant congrates.
by Kobe Won Kenobi on Feb 17, 2010 7:33 PM EST
congrates
by Kobe Won Kenobi on Feb 5, 2010 7:58 AM EST
IT’S CONGRATS. C—O—N—G—R—A—T—S.
Anyways, why add ‘I guess?’ You don’t think this isn’t an absolute steal and makes this team even better?
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Feb 17, 2010 6:39 PM CST up reply actions
thanks for the spellcheck..
Anyhow..its not up to me to decide of it upgrades your team or not..but i did like Big Z for what its worth
by Kobe Won Kenobi on Feb 17, 2010 7:26 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Z is going to get bought out and return.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Feb 17, 2010 7:30 PM CST up reply actions
I liked Big Z as a basketball player about 3 years ago, now i like Big Z for nostalgia, as well as his hard work, commitment to the team, and swearing under the basket where the rim mic picks it up. None of those things make him the player he used to be.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Feb 17, 2010 9:58 PM CST up reply actions
I believe so
2011-2012 is his expiration.
by inquisitiveman on Feb 17, 2010 6:39 PM CST up reply actions
Opinions on Telfair
I’ve never seen him play. He is obviously a throwin, but is his contract expiring? Also, can he play defense? good perimeter shoooter? or is he more of a driving penetrating guard?
Just a throw in. He isn’t going to play much if at all. I see alot of DNPs for him the rest of the season.
Good deal for the Cavs, they’d better win the title now.
He is more of a driving penetrating guard. this is a sum up of him of him
-He is short, (6-0) and could put on some weight
-despite his size he can defend well. He causes a fair amount of turnovers on D and plays solid defense.
-He is very athletic and flashy. He can drive to the basket well.
-He is a solid free throw shooter and is decent at drawing fouls.
-However his jump shot is still shaky. when he was getting more consistent PT, it was showing a bit of promise especially with his 3 point shot.
-He is an amazing ball handler averaging about assists per 36 minutes. he was also averaging over 7 this season.
-The downsides: He is still fairly raw and needs work on his jumper. his jumper isn’t horrible but it is very pedestrian. He also could use to drive a little more and takes too many shots from the field at times. He is limited by his size too.
However, he is a really nice player but is injured. when he is healthy he can be a factor in the rotation and play the point. he is in many ways the antithesis of boobie in basic offensive skills. boobie is not a good passer for a point, whereas telfair is. boobie is a lights out shooter though…
We also don’t know what david stern will do about delonte so having a solid passer and defender is a wise decision.
he showed some improvement and promise and improvement in his jumper.
He is stil la very young player and was straight out of high school. he has some very good skills. he is an excellent passer and a solid defender. if he improved his jumper, I would love seeing him on the floor.
He is not a “terrible shooter”. he is not that great but he is not horrible. he has shown improvement over the past couple years. plus he is decent from the charity stripe.
he is also a very athletic player and agile defender, and he is a superb passer and ballhandler…
I guess defense and passing don’t matter though, the guy has to be a lights out shooter.
telfair is a guy who will get occasional minutes. I also believe he has been acquired b/c delonte’s legal future is uncertain and ferry might not feel confident with only boobie as a bench player at guard (and danny green too…)
He is a TERRIBLE shooter — career 39%. And, no, he hasn’t improved over his career. Last season was the 2nd lowest FG% of his career.
Seriously, when are you going to stop just making things up?
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 17, 2010 10:44 PM CST up reply actions
Seriously…please stop attacking me!
I am NOT making things up!!
if you look at his last 3 seasons, he HAS gotten better. I don’t at all think he is a good shooter. I consider him extremely mediocre. I never said he was “good” but I am not going to call him “terrible”.
Terrible is an extremely subjective word. to me, he is not “terrible” but I guess to you he is.
No need to say I am making stuff up when we are talking about a SUBJECTIVE word.
Look at his stats. Facts don’t lie. His shooting % has NOT gone up the past three seasons. So, yes, you are making things up when you say he’s improved because the stats tell the truth.
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 17, 2010 10:56 PM CST up reply actions
If you look at all 3 seasons combined, they are better than his career shooting %. twice, he was at least 10 points OVER his career FG % and one year he was 7 points under.
if you look at the past 3 seasons, compared to the seasons before, the shooting HAS gone up.
But last year was his 2nd worst FG% for his career and this season is his worst 3-point % for his career. So I really don’t see how you can say his shooting has improved.
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 17, 2010 11:04 PM CST up reply actions
if you look at his 3 point shooting for his first 3 years and his shooting from these last 3 and take into account attempts, the averages are similar…in fact, there is a 2 percent increase over the last couple of years. 3s, more than other shots 2 are about being in a rythm. this year, he has been injured some and has not gotten that consistent of PT…so it is not surprising that his 3 has been off.
when you look at his 2 point shooting over his first 3 years and his last few, and consider attempts, his FG % is about .393. this is 3 points better than his career average. he also had an increase by 8 points compared to his first 3 years (.385).
when i say last 3 seasons, I mean ALL of the seasons. he may have seen a statistical dip in one category or 2 in a certain year, but overall, he has improved.
I was also curious to see if he improved in other stat areas…he did
-his turnovers per 36 min dropped .4 from 2.7-2.3
-His Ast per 36 improved from 5.4 to 6.3
-his steals per 36 improved slightly
-His fouls per 36 improved from 3.6 to 2.3
In general, yes he has had some major growing pains in the NBA but has shown improvement over his whole career. IMO, he should not have come out in HS and would be a better player now if he didn’t.
Lake show fan here...
I dunno if this is as big a steal as the Gasol trade but its damn close. Dont know if its quite as good as gettin Amare but who cares? I know everyone is already writing us off now but I still have faith we can win it again. Hopefully we finally meet in the Finals! Peace!
Can’t see Dallas taking you down, Denver has as a slightly better chance, but if they see the 100% Lakers, they won’t last a seven game series. See you in the finals!
see you there
lol its pretty amazing that the whole country (cept for SoCal) has wrotten us off but what would you expect? Trades for big name guys are sexy and everyone hops into that team’s bandwagon, just like they did back when we got Pau.
by desecrator09 on Feb 17, 2010 6:48 PM CST up reply actions
I haven’t heard anybody writing you off, but you can pretend to be an underdog if you want.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Feb 17, 2010 10:01 PM CST up reply actions
Are you kidding? Who’s writing off the Lakers? Most people think they’ll win the West easily.
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 17, 2010 10:15 PM CST up reply actions
How’s life treating you playing the world’s smallest violin?
by Western Reserve on Feb 18, 2010 2:18 PM CST up reply actions
Nope, not as good as Gasol and not as good as Amare (which would’ve been Gasol-like) but still very good. They get Jamison for next to nothing, basically a 1st round pick.
Amare would have been Gasol-esque
And would have been lights out for the duration that James and Amare were together…
"Who wants to buy some DVD's?"~Big Z
pack…most likely whatever we ended up doing was going to be a mistake according to BS Patrol.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Feb 17, 2010 7:20 PM CST up reply actions
He’s one of our resident trolls.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Feb 17, 2010 7:24 PM CST up reply actions
And the residence they give me is crap
You’re welcome to change it then at any time.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Feb 18, 2010 1:36 AM CST up reply actions
I know everyone is already writing us off now
Oh NO YOU DON’T…Stop right there.
Don’t you guys start the ’everyone’s writing us off, we’re just the underdog’s now, we’ll try our best and see if we can shock the world,’ motivation.. ..NIIICE try there. Forget it.
You’re still #1, still the evil empire at this point. lol ;)
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Feb 17, 2010 6:50 PM CST up reply actions
lol i honestly didnt mean it like that
I personally still think we’re number 1 but I was just sayin what everyone else outside of LA was saying. We’ll try to use that as motivation I guess…
by desecrator09 on Feb 17, 2010 6:55 PM CST up reply actions
lol I was jokin’ with ya…
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Feb 17, 2010 6:57 PM CST up reply actions
fuck i want amar’e If there was any chance at all of landing him I would much rather have that. Even if it means JJ (whom i don’t think much of) Son of a bitch im dissappointed if this kills our possible amare deal.
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
Well, I can see you being not as happy…but disappointed?
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Feb 17, 2010 6:51 PM CST up reply actions
Look… first, bask in the fact that we got Jamison. Second, its still possible that Amare comes here. The price for the All Star Starter is very low, even with Hickson. I’ll bet $10 that Amare will get traded to the Cavs @ the 11th hour if A) Miami can’t make a deal, and B) Danny is willing to cough up a bit more dough.
but we gave up our first pick, unless the suns will take 2012 pick in the amar’e deal, and if they would why didnt we make THIS deal use the wally contract and keep Z for the possible amar’e trade. I’m going to hurl. We should have just made the Amar’e trade and used wally to take on Jason richardson (if we are going to take on two 13+ million contracts)
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
you know what…you are the reason other teams fans don’t like us.
We ALREADY have lebron, Shaq, and Jamison.
you are honestly just being greedy, this is a huge criticism of cavs fans now and you are perpetuating the criticism.
you know what…you are the reason other teams fans don’t like us.
Other teams fans don’t like us b/c;
1. Lebron
2. Cavs are really, really good.
3. Lebron
4. Cavs are really, really good.
Besides…who cares? You can be the nicest, most reasonable, thoughtful, and non confrontational Cavs fan and trust me…other teams fans are NOT going to like you. I don’t want them to like us…I want their team to lose to our team. People like Clip fans…Warriors fans…Bucks fans….why? b/c they don’t represent any kind of threat. No thanks.
you are honestly just being greedy, this is a huge criticism of cavs fans now and you are perpetuating the criticism.
This makes no sense to me. Greedy? Teams and fans shouldn’t be? You get what you can get…and always try for as much as you can. So the Lakers won the championship last year…so they should say…‘you know…we won last year…other teams fans might not like us so let’s let someone else win it.’
‘The Heat have Wade, and if they got Jamison and could get Amar’e too they wouldn’t try or want to b/c that would be greedy?!?
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Feb 18, 2010 6:20 PM CST up reply actions
They are happy to get on with the necessary process, seemingly.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Feb 17, 2010 6:53 PM CST up reply actions
I think whether or not the fans consider the Cavs a ‘rival’ is immaterial to what they need to do to try and make themselves competitive again.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Feb 17, 2010 7:00 PM CST up reply actions
Wizards fans
One of them liked the trade. We’re waiting to hear from the other fan to see if it’s unanimous.
The Buckeye Battle Cry
SB Nation's official Ohio State blog
by Jeff at the BBC on Feb 17, 2010 7:15 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
god i wanted amar’e bad. My hopes were up so high just a half hour ago it looked like phoenix was about to crack. now all we got is a 33 year old version of amar’e who isnt as good on the pick and roll and isnt as good cutting to the basket, and we are happy. If amar’e gets moved to the heat i am going to vomit uncontrollably.
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
dont trip man
Jamison is better than Amare in some areas (defense) and he’s a very active and mobile 33 year old. He may not be as explosive but he’s a borderline all star (kinda like Lamar odom) and he’ll fit in pretty well since ya’ll have Lebron who can do anything.
by desecrator09 on Feb 17, 2010 6:57 PM CST up reply actions
Last year....
We were trying to get Shaq, and the Suns hesitated, then pulled the offer at the last minute.
Screw ‘em, we weren’t going to wait again.
The Buckeye Battle Cry
SB Nation's official Ohio State blog
by Jeff at the BBC on Feb 17, 2010 7:15 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, I don’t think waiting until tomorrow was an option for us.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Feb 17, 2010 7:18 PM CST up reply actions
We got the better shooter and better defender. Jamison > Amar’e
fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com
ESPN’s John Hollinger has Amare ranked as the #9 PF and Jamison the #15 PF. According to him Jamison is a pretty bad defender, probably worse than Amare.
Don’t get me wrong, it was a great deal. Getting Jamison for virtually nothing was great. But Jamison is not as good a player as Amare. He shoots threes better, but Amare shoots long twos better and has the better overall shooting percentage.
But, I’m pretty happy to have Jamison on the team. Give Danny Ferry some props.
Oh, no doubt. I’m just trying to disprove the claim that we got the better shooter and defender. I’m not sure that’s true. But I love the deal.
Check their shooting percentages and the scouting reports by Hollinger. Amare has a better shooting percentage and is extremely good at long twos. But you can believe whatever you wish.
just wait until jamison is raining in open three’s from lebron all day, he’s also very crafty around the basket. he surprises a lot of people with his game, i think he’s really underrated. and yes i know amare shoots roughly 47% from 16-23 feet, but you have to factor in the open looks he gets from pick n’ pops with Steve Nash.
shooting percentage doesn’t mean everything. is david lee the best shooter in the leauge? he always has a good FG% but he gets most of his shots from within 5 feet. that is the same with amare. whether he has a good long 2 or not doesn’t make him better. he takes most of his shots from within 5 feet (dunking or posting up). he is not nearly as good of a shooter shooting the way jamison does. jamison also is a threat from 3 point land too.
so you use ONE scouting report and misleading stats…
Do you know anything about Hollinger’s stats? Or are you just talking out of your rear end?
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 17, 2010 10:19 PM CST up reply actions
please stop using hollinger, his stats are bad and there are much better basketball writers out there
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Feb 17, 2010 10:09 PM CST up reply actions
Don’t get me wrong, some of his stats are great, but i don’t like most of them. I just have a natural aversion to all-encompassing stats or stats that use complex formulas. they have all sorts of modifying factors that seem to me to be somewhat arbitrarily set by whoever came up with the stat.
I should also be clear that I haven’t looked at hollinger’s stats in detail in well over a year, so this is just what i remember thinking, maybe i had my head up my ass at the time.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Feb 17, 2010 10:27 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, did you ever read his power rankings? Those are always bad. Lakers 1st even after the Cavs win 13 in a row and beat the Lakers twice. There was even a point during this streak when he had Jazz 2nd and Cavs 3rd.
by CAVS R BOSS on Feb 17, 2010 10:18 PM CST up reply actions
He uses a formula which takes in to account strength of schedule and other factors. He doesn’t rank them himself, he just posts what his numbers show. And he’s explained many times why his rankings may differ from what people think they should be.
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 17, 2010 10:22 PM CST up reply actions
True
It just seemed to me that the Cavs had a pretty rough schedule and a ton of back to backs. Plus, if you take into account point differential and defensive ratings and such i find it hard to believe Cavs being ranked behind the Jazz during this streak.
I like his player rankings they seem pretty accurate but, his team rankings seem a little off but like you said it’s his view and opinion.
by CAVS R BOSS on Feb 17, 2010 10:26 PM CST up reply actions
No, it’s not his view or opinion, that’s the point. He uses a mathematical formula and doesn’t change it based on his personal opinion.
He does use point differential along with strength of schedule with an emphasis on the most recent games. But it’s not perfect, and the Cavs and Jazz were very close int he rankings so the difference is negligible.
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 17, 2010 10:30 PM CST up reply actions
I just fail to see the value in that type of team ranking. I guess all team rankings are arbitrary, but i don’t think anyone could claim the formula does a better job than an analyst, so why waste time with the formula?
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Feb 17, 2010 10:32 PM CST up reply actions
I couldn’t disagree more. Any analyst’s rankings will have inherant biases and flaws based on their limited sample of games they watched. Just look at how terrible the college football rankings are most weeks. I would generally trust a computer ranking, done properly, over most human rankings. Of course, a human can take in to account injuries and other factors which computers can’t know about, but humans have way too many preconceptions and other flaws to make their rankings perfect.
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 17, 2010 10:35 PM CST up reply actions
I would agree with you, but the computer rankings are usually pretty close to the human rankings.
I think the whole idea of power rankings is sort of dumb. its interesting to see how people think your team lines up against others, but i really don’t care if the cavs are ranked ahead of the lakers in the latest power ranking.
those college rankings are also a totally different animal. its not those people’s jobs to rank teams.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Feb 17, 2010 10:42 PM CST up reply actions
Of course they’re usually close — people aren’t that dumb. But they do make glaring mistakes at times. And why are college rankings any different than these rankings? I have no idea what your last comment means.
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 17, 2010 10:46 PM CST up reply actions
The formula is flawed...
The rankings are a joke all season. I don’t even pay attention to those.
by inquisitiveman on Feb 17, 2010 11:10 PM CST up reply actions
I have one question. . . if you don’t pay attention to those rankings then how do you know they’ve been a joke all season? Wouldn’t you have to pay attention to know that?
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 17, 2010 11:13 PM CST up reply actions
cuz i was paying attention for most of
the 1st half of season, but seeing how it was messed up, i decided not to look for the past 3-4 weeks and won’t anymore from now.
by inquisitiveman on Feb 17, 2010 11:58 PM CST up reply actions
Well, that’s your loss. Just because you think it’s “messed up” doesn’t mean that it is. Did you ever think that maybe your opinions are wrong?
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 18, 2010 6:29 AM CST up reply actions
I would generally trust a computer ranking, done properly, over most human rankings.
Done properly. Therein lies the problem. Those formulas get inputted with a lot of human bias, and, as for the college football computer polls, they are literally tweaked year in and year out as humans try to make them more ‘accurate’ — probably to try to get them to live up to their own biases.
I’m not saying though that there is no value in the stats and some of the formulas out there; just maybe don’t put all your eggs in one basket.
by Western Reserve on Feb 18, 2010 2:37 PM CST up reply actions
my issue with the team ranking formula is that it makes such glaringly obvious mistakes. I know he’s explained why they differ from what many people think they should be, but the fact that they put the cavs behind the jazz during the recent win streaks seems to point to a flaw in the formula.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Feb 17, 2010 10:30 PM CST up reply actions
But the Jazz play in the West which is a much more difficult conference, and their strength of schedule reflects that. Plus, as I said above, the difference between the Cavs and the Jazz was so small it was really meaningless. But people see the Cavs ranked below the Jazz and get all upset.
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 17, 2010 10:32 PM CST up reply actions
they had a slightly more difficult SOS, but they also had a much more favorable H/A split than the cavs. the cavs had played more away games than home games, as well as more back-to-backs.
That doesn’t really matter though, we can’t really point to one thing as the reason the formula ranked one team ahead of another.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Feb 17, 2010 10:36 PM CST up reply actions
Utah’s SOS is .529 while the Cavs’ is .486. That’s not “slightly” better.
And, as I said, he did write an article a week or two ago explaining why the Jazz were ranked ahead of the Cavs.
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 17, 2010 10:40 PM CST up reply actions
my bad on the slightly, but if i remember correctly, there was also quite a difference in H/A split, and in the NBA thats huge.
Could you please post a link to that article? I have to get off the computer so i don’t have the time to look it up myself at the moment.
again, i really don’t care where they get ranked, i just think its obvious to most people that the cavs are better than the jazz, and if the formula ranks them otherwise, obviously the formula isn’t perfect.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Feb 17, 2010 10:45 PM CST up reply actions
He has said himself that the formula isn’t perfect, and when the teams were seperated by only a few hundredths of a point and it’s not meant to be that exact.
But the point is that things aren’t always so “obvious” as people often think they are, meaning the difference between the Cavs and the Jazz isn’t as big as most people think it is. I can think of many, many examples of when the general consensus was wrong about the relative strength of teams.
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 17, 2010 10:52 PM CST up reply actions
not everything is a formula though.
numbers do nto tell the whole story. numbers themselves can be twisted and misled. numbers are not as finite as people make them out to be.
13 games in a row is 13 games in a row. sometimes, you have to stop thinking that numbers are infallible and look up once in a while.
Coming from someone who constantly misuses stats and makes things up all the time, this is a very, very funny comment.
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 17, 2010 10:48 PM CST up reply actions
please stop it…
can you go one second without insulting me???
That is like the 3rd time on here you have said I make stuff up all the time…just STOP IT!!!!!!!!!
Do you seriously enjoy just putting me down in every comment you make?
you have to take a SERIOUS comment I make and just insult me!!
But that was a stupid comment. You claim that people can’t use stats all the time and numbers aren’t infallible, but then you repeat “13 games in a row” twice trying to prove that the Cavs are the best team in the league. Isn’t that a stat? Isn’t that a number?
People do this all the time. They rail against stats and claim that people use them too much, but then they use another stat to prove their point.
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 17, 2010 11:01 PM CST up reply actions
I am not even using stats that much to prove my point…but 13 games is, in a statistical sense, a very objective stat. many stats are fairly subjective and while they can be useful, they can also be misused. that is all I am saying.
I don’t think stats are evil, but i do not think they are infallible. there are too many people that treat them as if they were infallible. numbers and statistics are manipulated everywhere…sports is not an exception.
Haha — so the stat you’re using is “objective” while the stats other people use are “subjective”. That’s hilarious.
By the way, nobody who uses stats correctly thinks stats are infallible. But if used correctly they do tell a lot about players and teams, and the problem is that when a stat goes against public perception people just assume that the stat is flawed when that may not always be the case.
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 18, 2010 6:31 AM CST up reply actions
I agree that people do think that think stats sometimes that go against public perception are flawed.
The thing Is though about Objective vs. Subjective is this:
I have found using formulas to be good at times, but they can be open to manipulation. numbers from formulas are very fluid.
however, 13 games is a very concrete statistic.
In that sense that it is harder to be changed and is less changing, yes it is slightly more objective than formulas in general, but I do not know how objective/subjective the formula we are talking about is b/c there is no set rule for the fluidity of formulas.
Amar’e is at least an equal shooter, perhaps a better overall shooter for a forward. Amar’e doesn’t shoot threes but between 12 and 18 feet and 18-24 feet there are few better.
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
whoa there pal, lets not try to imagine what stoudemire could be if he tried and stick to what he is.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Feb 17, 2010 10:06 PM CST up reply actions
There is no doubt Amare is a better shooter at mid range and long range 2s.
http://www.hoopdata.com/recent.aspx?aid=153
But whatever, Jamison is on our team now.
but he can’t shoot a 3. jamison can. so what if he makes a few more 2s? jamison makes that many 3s, so guess who’s scoring more and spreading the floor further?
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Feb 17, 2010 10:07 PM CST up reply actions
I say better shooter, meaning jump shooter. Significant, because that is what we needed (to the extent we needed anything), especially losing Z (even if, hope, for only a month or so).
I also think he is a much better defender than Stoudemire. Amar’e is a total non-factor on D. And while I don’t think Jamison is a stand-out defender, I’m confident saying he is better than Amar’e.
fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com
but at the same time, that is one man’s opinion.
chris broussard from ESPN seriously thought we would get corey maghette who is a selfish SF who doesn’t have the shooting touch to play guard and is an egomaniac.
lets not take ESPN as the word of god. they are usually right but are still human.
seriously?
the PEOPLE that WRITE and RANK players on ESPN ARE HUMAN. I am talking about those PEOPLE…actually look up next time and see what i was replying too…okay?
Do you guys always argue like this? I’m sorry but, i have to admit it’s kind of entertaining. :)
by CAVS R BOSS on Feb 17, 2010 10:53 PM CST up reply actions
bross gets on a lot of people’s nerves.
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 17, 2010 10:54 PM CST up reply actions
I’ve asked you nicely many times to change your ways and you still haven’t. Many people have told you the things you do which annoys them yet you continue to do them.
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 17, 2010 11:06 PM CST up reply actions
I really do not.
I have changed my ways significantly from the first week I was on there. maybe you don’t believe so, but many people DO notice. I guess we got off on the wrong foot and you might judge me unfavorably from now on. if this is the case, it is okay. it is a very human thing to do. we all are judged by first impressions. sadly i made a bad fist impression on DBN.
Other people (including people that actually help out with the site) have noticed a change. It is disappointing that you have not seen this. also, you really have been the only one at all pointing this out. I have also gotten a couple compliments saying stuff like “finally you are talking more sense these days” or something like that.
And Lastly. Even if everything you said was true, does that give you a right to try to get on my nerves? maybe I accidentally do it, but purposely trying to, is doubly worse. an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind…its especially worse if the first eye was lost on accident and there was no intent.
Please be introspective, think hard and be honest…
I make a comment and I annoy someone. I don’t mean to but I slip up and say a dumb, asinine comment and someone gets annoyed.
You realize I have made a dumb comment. to counter this, you maliciously, purposefully, an intentionally get on my nerves and are rude back.
who is the better person?
Dude, I just made a joke. I wasn’t rude or mailicious or anything else you’re calling me. Lighten up and quite making a big deal about everything.
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 18, 2010 6:33 AM CST up reply actions
I get annoyed personally…
I am not on the internet to be anyone’s entertainment but some of the things Buckeye Brad says are obviously trying to get my goat and either insult me, or just piss me off…
It seems whenever there is some sort of debate on DBN, he takes the other person’s side and just throws insults and asinine comments like the one above at me.
Honestly, I love talking about sports, and cleveland sports, but this jerk takes all the fun out of it sometimes.
Why do you keep telling me to “look up”? Where do you think I’m looking?
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 17, 2010 10:54 PM CST up reply actions
Also, I was just messing with you. I obviously knew what you meant. You need to chill out.
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 17, 2010 10:54 PM CST up reply actions
As they said on BAD BOYS….. WOOSAW guys.
We’re all on the same side here. CAVS RULE!!!
by CAVS R BOSS on Feb 17, 2010 10:57 PM CST up reply actions
well…what am I supposed to expect.
1. you don’t make the friendliest comments to me on DBN.
2. you have made a couple comments on here very recently that haven’t been all that nice.
so then you make a “joke”, and you expect me to think it was a joke? Sir, I try to be understanding, but even I have my limit.
I saw this as an asinine comment…Why? because on here you have made a couple comments that have been a little rude. It would have been unwise of me to assume this WAS a friendly joke. nothing would have led me to believe this.
Brad.
1. The joke wasn’t even that funny…so if a joke is not funny, and just annoys someone, maybe it is an asinine comment…even if you meant it as a joke, that does not take away how it comes across…
2. Pick better comedic timing. if this had been at any other time, I would have taken it as a joke, but since you already have insulted me on here, It would be asinine of ME to assume this was a joke.
Did you really think that I was under the impression you thought ESPN was a human being? Really?!?
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 17, 2010 11:12 PM CST up reply actions
well since you seem to have a low opinion of my intelligence, it is not that improbable.
from my shoes, it is honestly more improbable that you would try to make a friendly joke…
it is not about your shoes always. you cannot judge how someone will perceive your comment from looking at it through your shoes.
you cannot judge how someone will perceive your comment from looking at it through your shoes.
too true, too true. i can’t see a damn thing when i’m looking through my shoes. my sperries are notably opaque, though.
also—come on, man. i just started posting here, but just judging by your responses in this thread, i can tell you need to develop a thicker skin. don’t take umbrage at everything buckeye brad says. arguing with people online is the biggest time and energy waster i can think of—if he takes issue with something you say, you don’t automatically have to get drawn into a ten-page debate.
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Feb 18, 2010 1:32 AM CST up reply actions
I am getting into much shorter debates with him. I have a much thicker skin, partially thanks to him. also, you have not seen the whole posting history between us…I don’t even know if you saw even posts from a different part of the thread.
You need to realize it’s not just with me . . . you do this with everybody at LGT and DBN. Maybe you should start to think that maybe it’s not everybody else’s fault all the time.
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 18, 2010 6:35 AM CST up reply actions
It really mostly is just with you at DBN…
I am taking responsibility when it IS me. the thing is, people have noticed I do it a lot less. and I do not do this with EVERYBODY at DBN and LGT. There are a lot of people on those websites. you can say I do it with some, but everybody is an absolute word. that means every single person. you are completely wrong, especially with the fact that you are using such an absolute word.
Obviously the word everybody was an exaggeration. I knew that and you knew that.
See, this is what I’m talking about. I know what everybody means; you don’t need to write me a definition. You take one little thing and write long paragraphs in response (this wasn’t a long paragraph but you’ve done it many times in the past). You need to let things go and not get all bent out of shape about every little things. This is why people get so annoyed with you, because nobody who’s reading this post wants to read all these comments.
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 18, 2010 10:44 AM CST up reply actions
1. I don’t do it as much.
2. then don’t use exaggerations on the internet. you are painting a false picture by using exaggerations. honestly, exaggerations annoy me in general. they annoy me, probably at least as much as my comments may annoy you.
It is also doubly annoying to me when someone exaggerates and does it to discredit me.
I did not know you were using an exaggeration. you have used the term everybody when describing this scenario several times. therefore I thought that you truly thought that everyone was annoyed with me. no matter if I was supposed to see the exaggeration or not, i hope you realize if you repeat a point/opinion over and over, people are going to think you really think that. they are not going to think it is an exaggeration.
things like exaggerations and sarcasm do not work that well on the internet. oftentimes in life, they rely on the tone of the voice. therefore, they have to be much wilder exagerations/sarcasms. the problem is when they are not far out there and are semi-normal…then they can get confusing to people.
Good Move for the Cav's
Congratulations!
Blessings.Love.Peace
by lifestyleforthesellout on Feb 17, 2010 7:06 PM CST reply actions
The rest of the NBA
has GOT to be freaking out. The best in the league just got better.
The Buckeye Battle Cry
SB Nation's official Ohio State blog
by Jeff at the BBC on Feb 17, 2010 7:14 PM CST reply actions
Alot of ‘em are deluding themselves with talk of ’chemistry’ issues, or ignoring the fact that Z is in all likelyhood returning. The less emotional/more objective ones accept that it was a good deal
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Feb 17, 2010 7:17 PM CST up reply actions
How comes...
No one has mentioned how good of a three point shooter Jamison is? This in my opinion is a much better trade than the Amare deal, because it gives the Cavs a power forward who can shoot threes and still finish around the basket. Amare would crowd the lane with Shaq or Z in the game, just like in Phoenix. This also allows the Cavs to keep Hickson, who is much younger and athletic, and is most likely the best defending forward on the team.
This is a good trade, but 1) Amare shoots only 35% from three, so hopefully he sticks to short corner three and 2) JJ is a lousy defender, while Varejao and Lebron are perhaps the best defenders at the 3 and 4 positions in the NBA.
obviously under-educated lakers fan wh this trade, forgetting so fast the gasol de packimop – February 17, 2010 re
dude do you really wana go there? I came in peace and regardless what i said it wasnt disrespectful to warrent you calling me under-educated cuz i miss spelled a word typing on my phone.
Check yourself
by Kobe Won Kenobi on Feb 17, 2010 7:29 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Not that it really mattesr Kobe but I think Pack is from the sixers board. I think he’s just stopping by to discuss the trade.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Feb 17, 2010 7:32 PM CST up reply actions
lol i'm not even a cavs fan i just wanted to see the comments
check your spelling, obviously under-educated lakers fan.
Nice trade
Great move for the Cavs. Giving up little to nothing for a quality starter. Definitely a small improvement with few, if any, long term drawbacks.
Enjoy Kerr
Should have played ball instead of thinking you were god’s gift to GM’s now you get to lose Amare for nothing.
Congrats on ruining a good Suns team.
question??
Dont you think its alittle odd to have the best team in the nba with the best defense and the best player (per se) then trade away your key backup center for a decent 4?? Im not saying its a bad trade or even a good trade..but cmon yall…sometimes making a trade for the sake of making a trade can be detrimental..Sometimes!!!!
by Kobe Won Kenobi on Feb 17, 2010 7:40 PM CST via mobile reply actions
just wondering… what do you think “per se” means?
fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com
by Ryan Kelsey on Feb 17, 2010 7:41 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
All-Stars are decent players? Wow that’s funny how you Laker fans think Shannon Brown is good but, Jamison is decent. Pretty funny!
Well 1st off shannon brown is a servicable back up point/shooting guard. And just cuz your an all star or have been one doesnt mean your not decent. Chris Kamman anyone!!!!
by Kobe Won Kenobi on Feb 17, 2010 7:52 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Actually talkin up the trade as if A.J. was a better trade than getting Amare should help some of you sleep alil better.
Just alil!!
by Kobe Won Kenobi on Feb 17, 2010 7:59 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
have you not read any of the arguments?
amare may be the better player but Jamison is a better fit. just face it you don’t know how offense works. Amare is a trash defender and “A.J” stretches the floor more than anyone on the team right now (excluding the injured Mo Williams) and Lebron. He can score in the post, he can hit the jumper, and he has an array of moves inside the low post. He’ll match up well against other 4’s that shoot the ball well, Amare Won’t.
LOL! He actually talked good about the Cavs on ESPN NEWS and said that he thinks this move should solidify LeBron staying. Jalen Rose agreed and said that he thinks he’ll do like he always does and not max the length of his contract to keep the pressure on the front office.
by CAVS R BOSS on Feb 17, 2010 10:15 PM CST up reply actions
OMG!!! Adande has his head out of phil Jackson’s Ass???
And he complimented the Cavs? Hell HAS frozen over…
Yeah, i’m sure it won’t last long though. In a few weeks he’ll have another article saying why LeBron should go play for the Clippers.
by CAVS R BOSS on Feb 17, 2010 11:01 PM CST up reply actions
We’re getting that center back in a month, and Jamison is far more than a “decent” 4. JJ Hickson is a decent 4.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Feb 17, 2010 10:14 PM CST up reply actions
Still worried about losing Z. But this was better than any rumored trade out there, by far. And I’d say there is about a 60% chance he comes back. In the meantime, this moves HIckson to the bench and increased minutes for Andy and Shaq.
The Amar’e thing didn’t work on so many levels. This is a much better fit. All-in-all, I’m happy. If for no other reason, we avoided a potential disaster. (Losing Hickson and Z and a first round pick and signing Amar’e long term.)
fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com
Yall wanna pick apart everything i say but im trying to be civil. Dont make me go Mamba mode lol jk
Oh..do i need to explain what ‘jk’ means or will yall let me slide on that one
by Kobe Won Kenobi on Feb 17, 2010 7:55 PM CST via mobile reply actions
mamba mode?
You’re gonna violate us in Denver?
The Buckeye Battle Cry
SB Nation's official Ohio State blog
by Jeff at the BBC on Feb 17, 2010 8:45 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Really? A Denver joke? I would have thought you were older than 14. Ironically the poster’s name is Kobe Won Kenobi and hes really being civil.
by celtics3016 on Feb 17, 2010 10:04 PM CST up reply actions
he’s trying to pick a fight without looking like it.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Feb 17, 2010 10:15 PM CST up reply actions
do i need to explain what ‘jk’ means or will yall let me slide on that one
I suppose we’ll let it slide since you managed to spell it right.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Feb 18, 2010 1:25 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
We should have taken Jason Richardson’s contract. Unless Danny Ferry has a magic trick up his sleeve I am really dissappointed we didn’t get amare. Oh yeah by the way I really don’t care about JJ hickson, I promise you that Leon Powe could easily step in and do everything JJ does currently. Amar’e is a better deal JJ or no JJ.
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
Jaws,
Stoudemire = 27 years old, 8th year in the league (7 previous years)
Powe = 26 years old, 4th year in the league (3 previous years)
Hickson = 21 years old, 2nd year in the league (1 previous year)
Therefore, you would hope that Powe can do what Hickson is doing – that says more about what Hickson is doing at his young age than what Powe can do. You may be down on J.J., but being only his second year in the league, with only one year of college experience, I think he’s progressing quite well.
His exclusion from the deal makes the Jamison deal much more preferable by itself, never mind the fact that Jamison IS a better fit for the Cavaliers. Both Ric Bucher and Jon Barry believed that Jamison was the real target, not Stoudemire, and both think that Jamison fits the Cavaliers much better, especially when it comes to potential matchups like Rashard Lewis of the Magic.
From what I’ve heard and read, Jamison is the better defender, plus puts more focus on defense; Stoudemire didn’t even pay attention to the defensive end for the longest time. Additionally, how much of Stoudemire’s production is based on Nash and the “run-n-gun” offense of the Suns, which the Cavaliers don’t play full-time like the Suns do?
Some also were concerned that the Cavaliers incorporating Stoudemire into the offense would take more time than having Jamison fit in, since Jamison fills a missing piece, whereas the Cavs already have LeBron and Shaq inside, which is the same type of game that Amare plays. The Cavaliers don’t want to take precious time and resources trying to incorporate Amare when they’re trying to get homecourt advantage throughout the playoffs – this is crunch time now, not exhibition time like the first-third of the season was when they were incorporating Shaq into the fold. LeBron may say he can get it to work, but how long will it take to work effectively – the Lakers aren’t THAT far behind us, and Orlando is still in the neighborhood; the Cavs don’t want to be playing games with the formula that has worked with them to this point – Jamison fits that formula better than Amare does.
Additionally, what happens if Stoudemire opts out of his contract after this season – you trade away Hickson, a draft pick, and potentially more (since Phoenix was asking for more) for 3 months of Amare? I’m sorry, but Amare is NOT worth that, and especially if, somehow, the Cavaliers don’t win the title. And whether LeBron stays or goes, that doesn’t guarantee Amare is going to stay either way – most reports suggest he wants to play for the Heat. Conversely, Antawn is here through the 2012 season, I think, and he’s still playing at a high level, filling a hole the Cavaliers do have, while fitting the defensive mindset that Mike Brown wants.
Therefore, this deal made much more sense, and for the little cost it went down for (with Z presumably coming back), this deal looks to be much more of a positive than a negative, no matter how you slice it or how much you like Amare. Overall, Ferry did a very good job in my opinion.
by cavaliersfan on Feb 17, 2010 8:44 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
THE TRADES NOT FINALIZED, DANNY FERRY, STOP THE PAPERWORK, TAKE JASON RICHARDSON INSTEAD HOLY SHIT.’
hahhaa
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
Shaq to guard Howard and Jamison to Guard Lewis
Are the Cavs done preparing for the Magic?
"Who wants to buy some DVD's?"~Big Z
Is someone a little worried?
(Don’t flatter yourself too much though, the Cavs are a better team today than they were yesterday, enough said.)
Worried?
about what?
I am as worried as I was when the Cavs came into the ECF 8-0 last May.
"Who wants to buy some DVD's?"~Big Z
You and sarcasm must be real good friends. You sure do use a lot of it in your posts.
by CAVS R BOSS on Feb 17, 2010 10:22 PM CST up reply actions
I don’t even know the guy.
Is this the whale section?
by sarcasmdave on Feb 18, 2010 12:29 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I am as worried as I was when the Cavs came into the ECF 8-0 last May.
…as well you should be.
This year the Cavs are much different, much deeper and much, much better. Why you keep referencing last year when making comparisons makes absolutely no sense.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Feb 18, 2010 1:17 AM CST up reply actions
Are the Cavs done preparing for the Magic?
From the way the games have played out so far looks like we were done with that when we got Shaq.
"I don’t dance too much." --Mike Holmgren
by johnnyphoenix on Feb 18, 2010 1:22 AM CST up reply actions
Not liking this at all. Does anyone really think Jamison is worth 28 million for two years? I was hoping for Amare or nothing. This does nothing for the hopes of keeping Lebron around for years to come.
by ScoobiesSkidmarks on Feb 17, 2010 8:11 PM CST reply actions
i disagree
i think doing nothing would have made lebron more likely to leave than trading for jamison. You can’t be mad about what didn’t happen with Amare. The question for Cavs fans has to be: Does Jamison give the Cavaliers a better chance to come out of the East? Does Jamison give the Cavs a better chance to win a championship? Both of those scenarios were possible before the trade, but this trade gives them a higher probability.
But now there is another high paid roster spot that could have been used next year to bring in a legitimate all star along with Lebron. Instead we have a former all star to pay big money to. It might make them better this year, but could hurt next year. It looks like they are fixing something that wasn’t broken.
by ScoobiesSkidmarks on Feb 17, 2010 8:20 PM CST reply actions
no
You’re mistaken on our goals for the off-season. We are not in the market to gain a big name….we will be in the market to KEEP a big name.
Plus, there’s a little contract that ends in June to the tune of 21 million. Shaqs departure will clear space.
But it is the rest of the league looking to add….the Cavs will be looking to keep
The Buckeye Battle Cry
SB Nation's official Ohio State blog
by Jeff at the BBC on Feb 17, 2010 8:42 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
In all, a sound deal for all parties at the moment. I worry about Antawn Jamison making over $15 million two years from now, and I worry (as always) about going the safe route. Jamison could mean a championship this year, but Stoudemire could have meant a dynasty.
Dwyer’s summary on ball don’t lie. I can’t help but agree. Good trade, it makes us better, gives us a better chance of winning this year but getting Amare would have done that too, and it would give us a better chance to win next year and the year after. 2 years from now Jamison will be 35 making similar money to what Amare will be making in 2 years at 29.
CavsLebronFan,
That’s ONLY if Stoudemire doesn’t opt out of his contract and/or he resigns here – regarding the dynasty idea.
Most reports suggest that he wants to head to Miami, which could be plausible (look at the weather, the nightlife, etc.) What if Stoudemire turns into a 3-month rental? You’re back to going for it this year and that’s all regarding this trade. Losing Hickson, a draft pick, and potentially more would not be worth it if Stoudemire decides to leave, and whether LeBron stays or not doesn’t guarantee Stoudemire is staying, especially if Stoudemire wants more touches and fanfare, which he likely wouldn’t get here if LeBron stays – LeBron will get top-dog status here, Amare wouldn’t, regardless of his past contributions. Can Amare accept that? Reports are mixed on that aspect, which could make it more likely he would bolt after 3 months.
Therefore, this assumption of a possible dynasty with Amare may be based more on myth than reality, all due respect to Dwyer, when you consider whether Amare would stay long term or not.
by cavaliersfan on Feb 17, 2010 8:48 PM CST up reply actions
I worry if amare can have this sort of production 2 years from now.
Honestly, I worry if he can have this sort of production coming directly onto the cavs. he is the 2nd option AT BEST in that offense. he was the #1 scoring option before. playing Next to shaq and getting slightly fewer minutes, he would become a 16 and 8 kind of guy. good, but still nothing amazing. granted that is what I think jamison could give us too (maybe honestly a little more scoring). Amare is not a player on the rise. statistically he is on a downswing…and he benefits from being in a scoring system, and having the best PG in the league.
Question: Wally = Z if contract is bought out?
Question to someone that understand how the NBA works ‘expiring contract-wise.’
Since the Cavs have bird rights for Wally, would Wally’s value have equaled Z’s value if the receiving team (Wiz) was just going to clear salary and buy out the contract?
If so, is there any reason for the Cavs not to send Wally instead of Z if they want him back? Is there any reason for Washington to care?
Any insight appreciated. TY
I’m not an expert on NBA contracts, but my understanding is that Wally has taken up analyst duties for CBS’s NCAA Tournament, and something in his contract prohibits him from taking a job like that because he has to physically be in uniform and/or travel with the team for a period of time in order for him to be on the active roster, be traded, then be cut and have the salary cap relief.
Again, I’m not an expert – someone else can likely explain it better, but I think the main idea of why Z was the one traded and not Wally is due to what I mentioned above.
by cavaliersfan on Feb 17, 2010 8:51 PM CST up reply actions
overlooked
Something that we are overlooking here….
The Celtics were trying to get Jamison too, to upgrade their game for a title run. Not only do we get better, we deny them their big trade option.
The Buckeye Battle Cry
SB Nation's official Ohio State blog
by Jeff at the BBC on Feb 17, 2010 8:38 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Z will return
The Wiz got a center in the deal from LA, Brian Skinner.
They have no need for Z. They’ll waive in 30 days.
The Buckeye Battle Cry
SB Nation's official Ohio State blog
by Jeff at the BBC on Feb 17, 2010 8:44 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Turns out the Wiz didn not get Skinner.
Dear Mr. Grunfeld,
I apologize, on behalf of all Wizards fans, for whatever it is we did to you.
by returnofswagger on Feb 17, 2010 8:56 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, you got the rights to Emil Preldzic he’s a center pretty sure but, i think he’s over seas this year. Still i doubt the Wizards won’t buy Z out.
Brian Windhorst reporting....
That the Wizards are now within 1 million dollars of being under the luxury-tax threshold.
Translation – they’re gonna waive Ilgauskas.
The Buckeye Battle Cry
SB Nation's official Ohio State blog
by Jeff at the BBC on Feb 17, 2010 9:03 PM CST reply actions
Lets all hope that Stoudemire stays with PHX this year and Jamison is enough of an asset to swing a sign and trade for Stoudemire this coming offseason. (a full season adjustment period would be better for incorporating him into the lineup anyway)
Don’t be surprised if we have trouble in the playoffs again this year. while we are the best team on paper theres no reason why LeBron or shaq could have down games and leave us vunerable again.
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
You think it really matters if SHAQ has a down game?
And you seem to think that Amare wants to come to Cleavland when he already said he doesn’t want to. You think that the Cavs have enough money to sign Amare and Lebron. Jamison may cost 15mil, but Amare wants more than that and more years. Also, if Lebron stays put it looks like Amare will be on the beach next year.
In the language of civil, sane NBA players who don’t want to make a big stink: Amar’e has all but said that he would kill his own grandmother to be a cavalier. The people speculating that Miami was #1 destination are just blowing hot air. Amar’e wants a ring, bad. He knows that the cavs offer the best chance at that this year at least. The cavs might not be his #1 destination this summer (when everyone is 0-0) they certainly were right now, as evidenced by sources claiming that he is really discouraged now that the cavs are no longer the front runner for him.
I wish we would have made the wally S + Z + JJ + danny green + draft pick for Stoudemire + Jrich trade. Get amare at the cost of JJ (yeah as much as you love him he is basically a future drew gooden at best) Yeah you have to pay out a bunch of salary, but JRich becomes an expiring contract this summer and we might have had a chance to send him out on a sign and trade or deadline deal.
In fact if a Jamison + Wally + JJ + danny green for stoudemire + jrich trade was still possible i would literally fall all over myself trying to make it. The cavs have plenty of guys to get on base in front of lebron and make him look good, they need a guy who can hit behind lebron and take some pressure off of him, on the off chance that lebron has a bad game.
"My signature is only one line. You're welcome."
Give it up, man. 8 posts about how much you wanted Amare is enough.
by cleveland teamer on Feb 17, 2010 10:20 PM CST up reply actions
George Thomas
Was asking him on TWITTER if he heard about the chances of Jamison playing tomorrow and at first he said he didn’t think so then later he said he heard there’s a chance he suits up tomorrow.
Don’t know if anyone reads him or not but, just passing it along.
I hope he does play tomorrow i’m anxious to see what he’s going to do.
Andre Blatche is gonna be a beast
it looks like. Had Jamison not been traded, he would’ve not had the opportunity to play tonight and score a career-high 33pts and 13 rebounds.
by inquisitiveman on Feb 17, 2010 10:38 PM CST reply actions
Wasn’t that what Wizards fans were saying about him earlier this year and then he fizzled. One game doesn’t make a career.
by CAVS R BOSS on Feb 17, 2010 10:40 PM CST up reply actions
actually he was playing quite well when antwan was hurt. he was still playing well when jamison was sore…but when jamison was back to playing 35-38 minutes, blatche fizzled…
he also saw his minutes cut in half and starting not getting consistent playing time either…most players would see a drop in stats. when he gets a shot to play, and gets consistent time, he is very good.
Yeah i hear you i’m just not ready to say he’s going to be better than Jamison.
by CAVS R BOSS on Feb 17, 2010 10:56 PM CST up reply actions
This guy on the Browns main board is a Wizards fan and actually said Javelle Mcgee is better than Jamison.
by CAVS R BOSS on Feb 17, 2010 11:06 PM CST up reply actions
Well..he's only played a couple seasons,
the jury will remain out until he plays several years, but the Wiz did the logical move in keeping a younger potential player.
by inquisitiveman on Feb 17, 2010 11:06 PM CST up reply actions
Z is gonna return to the Cavs thru a buyout, so
they basically got Jamison for nothing.
by inquisitiveman on Feb 17, 2010 11:14 PM CST reply actions
Big Bassy fan here. Lot’s of people have written him off as a non-factor and as someone who won’t see the floor. I have to disagree. He comes to ball every day and will scrape and claw for minutes. He hasn’t lived up to the impossible expectations, but at 5"11, 175, he’s managed to put a career together.
A few years ago, he went to Minny as a throw-in, coming off an awful year in Boston and the baggage of off-court issues. It was perhaps his last chance. He then spent the better part of two seasons starting and put together one of the best two-year adjusted +/- totals in the entire league. It wasn’t a fluke. The Wolves kept trying to throw other starters out there, including Randy Foye, Marko Jaric and Kevin Ollie, but they kept going back to Bassy because the team just always seemed to play better with him on point.
He was traded to the Clips last summer and played well for them in limited minutes. Baron got about 35 minutes, so it was tough for Bassy to find a groove. Also, he was very stifled in Dunleavy’s plodding offense.
As for what he does and doesn’t do:
He shot 33% from range last year, so the idea that he can’t shoot the three-ball is BS. He is not a Boobie Gibson, though; he needs to be able to find his stroke, and he hasn’t had much of an opportunity to do that this year.
He has very quick hands and one of the best handles in the league reflected by a solid A/TO.
His midrange jumper has gotten more consistent and I think he’s hitting around 50% this year from 15 to 20 feet.
He is also gotten much better at picking his spots for attacking the rim. He doesn’t try to finish over big men anymore because he’s not strong or a great leaper and has short arms. But he is good at getting past his man and then getting a clean look.
He is a natural playmaker, averaging around 7 dimes per 36 minutes. And some of his passes are sublime.
As I said before, his size and frame limit him. He is not going to get a good shot off if the defense is packing the lane and sometimes he lacks confidence in his jumper, which has a negative effect on his entire game.
On the defensive end, he puts in effort and is a smart defender. But frequently gets caught up in screens and struggles to defend the pick and roll. But this is more due to his physical limitations than his effort.
He is one of the fastest north-south players in the league, but his east-west quickness is average.
Over the course of his career, he has really improved his decision making and is a smart, dependable and steady floor general. He works hard and won over a very skeptical fanbase in Minnesota.
This year was more difficult because he clearly had trouble adjusting to a new playing style and role. There is reason to be concerned that he’ll struggle in Cleveland because he does seem like a player who needs minutes to be effective. But I wouldn’t write him off as somebody who won’t be a big part of the team at some point over the next couple of seasons because he has a professional attitude and can play.
He and LeBron are also very tight.
He was traded to the Clips last summer and played well for them in limited minutes. Baron got about 35 minutes, so it was tough for Bassy to find a groove. Also, he was very stifled in Dunleavy’s plodding offense.
yeah. I totally agree. I have noticed this too as a cavs fan. he has still been good but has not been able to get a rythm. the one area this hurts the most is 3s and he has not been good from there. someone picked out his 3s this year and said he must be bad but he has not gotten a lot of looks or playing time. he has also had some injuries. when a guy has these things going against him, his 3 point percentage suffers. the same thing happened with boobie last year and everyone criticized him…
He shot 33% from range last year, so the idea that he can’t shoot the three-ball is BS. He is not a Boobie Gibson, though; he needs to be able to find his stroke, and he hasn’t had much of an opportunity to do that this year.
Also, about the opportunity. I felt like highlighting the areas I have already tried to emphasized to ppl.
He has very quick hands and one of the best handles in the league reflected by a solid A/TO.
Oh, definitely. he is a great passer…his A/TO has also been improving every year. first 3 years about a 2…this is very solid. last 3, it has been about a 2.8…that is excellent.
His midrange jumper has gotten more consistent and I think he’s hitting around 50% this year from 15 to 20 feet.I have noticed he has gotten a little better there.
IMO, Bassy should have gone to college. He came into a bad situation and I don’t think he was truly ready for the NBA right out of HS. it showed, but once he adjusted, he has become a very nice player.
Correct
Agreed on the college thing. But I think it was a matter of money. Who can really fault him? But there is no question, coming straight into the league stunted his basketball development. The thing that’s held him back the most is his inconsistent jumper. At 5"11, you need to be able to stick that J and he just hasn’t been able to do that consistently enough. But he’s had some stretches of really solid play on bad teams over the past few seasons and can run an offense very competently, especially when he’s out there with guys who can make shots
Some players just need to get into the right situation to succeed. Look at Shannon Brown. It’s a matter of finding a team that needs what you bring to the table. The Cavs don’t have a pure playmaking point. Mo Williams is a PG, but a different kind of point than Bassy. Delonte and Boobie are combo guards points. Bassy will push all three of them. And people will be pleasantly surprised when he finds his way into the rotation.
I do not fault him from a money standpoint.
yeah. at that height you have to be a lights out shooter. he is an improving shooter but still not that consistent.
I do agree with you. when you look at his passing and A/TO ratio recently, he could be our best passer outside of lebron. I like mo but he is more of a shooting point. he is really a combo guard (but undersized for a 2) who can knock down shots and still pass well. delonte is somewhat the same. boobie is truly a shooting guard, but he is short for the position. he doesn’t pass well at all.
I think that in some ways scoring is a little overrated. I understand you need points to score but not every player on your team has to be a lights out shooter. a guy who plays solid D and is a playmaking point is still valuable. I mean the pistons won with ben wallace who only rebounded and played D. telfair is a better offensive player…and he also passes extremely well and plays solid D.
Anyone think the Celts regret letting Powe go?
They could certainly need a PF since they lack the depth. The Cavs are so deep now with Powe, Hickson, and Jamison. Once they get Z back, they will be deep. The question is, can a team be too deep?
by inquisitiveman on Feb 17, 2010 11:17 PM CST reply actions
I know a lot of Celtics fans wanted to keep Powe but, who knows if it was a regret for them yet since he hasn’t played yet. It’s possible he plays tomorrow. We’ll know more about him at the end of the year.
by CAVS R BOSS on Feb 17, 2010 11:27 PM CST up reply actions
Can we talk about How we are going to play all of these talents?
Lets first make the assumption that Z returns.
Starters:
Shaq
Lebron
Mo
Hickson
Parker
2nd squad
Z
Varejo
Jamison
West
Gibson
Bench:
Powe
Moon
Williams
Bassy
Green
Jackson
Now this is a very talented team. Easy to mix and match. I see Jamison playing a few less minutes than he is used to in order to preserve those knees. But I bet he is in the last 10 minutes of each game. I expect Jackson will be gone and Powe becomes our Banger inside.
Does this look like to many good players? The line-ups are incredible and match-up with anyone. The leadership of Lebron and MB will be tested to keep all of these guys happy. Not a bad problem to have.
I also want to point out one thing.
Lets say the worst case happens. Z and Shaq retire. LeBron leaves. ( I don’t think so but bear with me)
We know have Jamison,Varejo, Powe, and Hickson in the front court.
We know have Bassey, Mo,Gibson, West, in the front court
We know have Moon, Williams, and Green as swingmen
A lot of teams would take that line-up any day and the opportunity to add a player.
I really like what Ferry pulled off.
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
I agree. I do hope that Z comes back because I did notie one somewhat glaring hole in the team…Size…
If we give up Z we only have one 7 footer. we have shaq at 7-1 and then as his backup we have the 6’11 Andy…then at the 4 we have 3 guys under 6’10 in JJ, Jamison and Powe. powe in fact is considered slightly undersized and both JJ and Jamison are only average height for the position.
This is not a major issue but it is the one glaring hole I can see. teams can win being undersized. Heck CSU is winning with a 6’4 Power Forward.
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