I think I see the issue here. You don’t hate the Yankees. I think that says something fundemental about the level of your allegiance to the Cleveland Indians. Not being as allegiant, it makes sense to not really invest the time in understanding the eight-ball that a small-market organization is behind in today’s game of major league baseball.

I think we can end the back and forth at this point.

This.

yep. when you are spending money and not making money, what do you do?

By the way, I looked up. the indians and they are 18th in revenue, 18th in team value, and 15th in player salaries…so are they really spending more than they have?

the notion that dolan never spent money is completely false. when he bought the club the player salaries were about 70 million. he bought it in 2000. by 2002, he had raised the payroll to over 100 million making them one of the larger spenders at the time. however the team did not achieve the success they had hoped for. the dolan teams just weren’t successful. it was during his first year or two that The Streak ended. He was spending money but he wasn’t making money the franchise was in the red for consecutive years in 2002 and 2003…they were spending money but were not succeeding.

He had to cut costs to save the franchise. the fan base was dying.

I think the problem was that it was too good to last. people have to consider the time period. The streak was from 1995 to 2001. yes the indians were extremely successful during that time but think about what else wasn’t in cleveland during that time…the BROWNS. cleveland is first and foremost a browns town. has been since the 50s. The indians were keeping the streak alive when the new browns were awful and they were still good. however, when they were not as successful and the browns became more successful, then comes the end of the streak. the streak in fact ended near the end of the year. People were excited about the hiring of butch davis. cleveland became a browns town again.

Also, the cavs were very popular in the early 90s. we had players like Hot Rod, Daugherty, and Price. by 1995 not only were the browns gone but the core of those highly popular cavs teams.

the same thing is happening with the browns right now. a couple games this season they were in danger of not selling out. while this is a browns town it is also Lebron-Town. Lebron has the cavs competing every year while the browns stink.

The Indians financial success under dolan was somewhat of an aberration and will not happen with the indians again. the fall of the indians salary and revenue mirrors the rise of lebron and the rise (or just creation and not complete suckiness) of the new browns.

It is hard for the indians to compete now financially. not only are the browns back but lebron is a hometown hero of sorts.

This is what I mean about you not understanding the economics of baseball. You’re getting all upset and accusing me of many things I’ve never done, but your comment above just demonstrates this. The Indians simply cannot compete financially with the teams from New York, LA, and Chicago. That’s true in many other cities, as well. Dolan selling the team to someone else isn’t going to fix the problem. Until you understand this then you’re going to continue to be upset with your unrealistic expectations.

the Indians will never, ever be able to spend like the Yankees and Red Sox until baseball changes their system.

Cavslandrocks, he’s right. When I first joined DBN (Browns’s blog), I made comments similar to yours because I thought I knew what I was talking about based on what I’d read on other sites (not cleveland.com).

But yeah… what BB is saying is exactly right. I know it’s frustrating to see our favorites (Victor, Cliff Lee, CC, etc.) go. (I’m praying that we can keep Grady but I have a feeling Boston or Philly etc. will get him eventually.) But sadly that’s how the system in the MLB is now.

I totally agree. I just noticed this too.

They had the new stadium and the exciting young team. also they were really the only team in the city. there was the cavs but by 1995, Hot Rod, Daugherty, and Price were all gone. those were the guys that got people to cavs games. the browns also left.

Also notice that the revenue for the indians starts dipping a bit when the browns came back. in fact, the year that the sellout streak ended coincided with the first training camp of butch davis. I hate to say it, but people were actually excited about him. he had energized the city again.

They just can’t spend like those cities…that is completely true. Dolan attempted to do this in 2002 and 2003 after the streak ended to regain the fan base. they were spending about 100 million dollars a year. in fact, even though teams are spending more than they did back then, we would have been spending top 10 in baseball…up there with the dodgers and astros. also, during those years, dolan was operating in the red. you cannot support that kind of payroll that we had back then.

OK…last time I’m saying anything on this subject since it is completely off topic here….my “expectations” are not unrealistic..If a business is failing financially, you sell it or close it…the last thing you do is devalue your product or cut your services…THIS is why customers (fans) stay away…IF the team was sold to someone who had the money to burn (too bad Vern Stouffer didn’t sell it to The Boss back in the 70’s) there would be no question about the quality of the product given Shapiro’s track record of making do with what he has to work with..I know he got bumped up but I trust his judgment…He’s done what he had to do…he followed his employer’s orders..He was given a budget and lived with it…It all comes back to If you don’t have the cards, fold, and clearly Dolan isn’t willing to up the ante…and in this economy, it would be a real gamble..I’ll say it one more time…IT WILL TAKE 3-4 CONSECUTIVE YEARS OF FIELDING A CONTENDER-not just a good/competitive/entertaining team-TO GET PEOPLE TO SUPPORT THE INDIANS AGAIN…Once every four or five years or even a good run (2005) once in a while won’t cut it…If the current ownership doesn’t have the money or desire to do that, starting with this season, then the team needs to be sold to someone who will…just like when the Jacobs brothers bought it…Just like when Stouffer sold it because he couldn’t afford it any more…The Cavs are a perfect example of ownership willing to do what it takes to try and win….no ifs, ands, or buts about it…
It would help teams like the Indians and other mid to small market teams if MLB would institute some form of spending limit and a floor amount…

Yeah. It’s so funny that he admits he didn’t like the trades at the time — because it was for some “no name” prospects — but it turns out they were great trades for the Indians. And then Shapiro did the same thing many times in getting Sizemore, Lee, Phillips, Hafner, Choo, and Cabrera. You’d think he’d learn after all this time. But, no, he still whining about trading expensive, soon-to-be-free-agent veterans for young, cheap, prospects who will be part of our next great team. Maybe one of these years he’ll learn that’s how baseball works.

at the same time, from a financial success it was a fluke. The player acquiring was not.

consider what happened in 1995. the browns left. cleveland fans didn’t have the browns anymore. they could try to turn to the cavs…but no, the cavs got rid of price, Daugerty retired, and Hot Rod and nance were gone too (nance retired). the whole core of those great 90s cavs teams were gone. the cavs stunk and no one went anymore. the financial success will never again be repeated. the decline of the cavs and browns was mirrored by the rise of the indians. the town got behind the indians in a way they had not for a long time. the indians continued their financial success until about 2001. by that point, the cavs still sucked, but the browns were back and getting a little better.

also, in around 2003, Larry dolan was operating significantly in the red and he was losing money b/c of payroll. why was this? because not only were the browns actually competative at times, but the cavs got lebron.

The on the field success CAN be repeated but the financial success cannot. the situation that they were in will not happen again.

good enough…though having been through owning both failed and successful businesses, I still maintain that excess cash can cure a lot of ills in a business