Cavaliers Outsider: Re Terry Pluto's talking' ... about Kyrie Irving's fans

by CLECavsOutsider on Feb 21, 2012 4:30 PM CST

Cavaliers Outsider: Re
Terry Pluto's Talkin' ... about Kyrie Irving's fans

My response to the blog posted by Terry Pluto (The Plain Dealer)

About the Cavaliers...

1. Mike Wallace of ESPN's Heat Index, on LeBron James toying with a return to Cleveland, is probably one of the best I've heard. Kyrie Irving is the clear face of the franchise, who's base begins with a TOTAL TEAM concept. It's disrespectful on both sides, but attention whores have no concept of that. James is just being LeBron, doing with Cleveland, what he did to Cleveland, I guess in the case of local media, being on the receiving end of his empty affections, is in some manner rewarding.

CHEATERS are REPEATERS... What I've noticed most about Miami, even though they have the reputation of not being a "sports town", their media members ask the tough questions, they hold James accountable for not only his words, but his lack of actions. The pressure to win, went 3 fold when James took his talents to South Beach. But when he points fingers in failure now, tough questions, harsh words, and or criticism go right back in his direction.

2. How can fans not like this team? They play hard every night, they clearly support each other, and the pieces seem to fit. Irving, while living up to early season expectations, has never separated himself from TEAM. With James, its always been he, and everyone else, now in Miami, it the 3 Kings, and the rest of the team.

The Cavaliers have an opportunity to put this TEAM together in the right manner, built for long term success, while maintaining flexibility. Anderson Varejao is not a superstar, in any right, but he puts on his hard hat, packs his lunch, even though at times, he appears to play right through his lunch break. This is my TOWN, and this is my TEAM...

3. Yes, the Cavs have a losing record, some of the losses have even been downright disappointing. For me it started on opening night vs Toronto. Realistically speaking, this team could very easily have 4-6 more wins. :James is no longer a part of this team, he made a conscious choice not to be here, there's no need to converse about him further...until of course he has another Heat-failure in the playoffs. Even then...I'll leave that to the national media.

4. James' scorched-earth exit is perfect for General Manager Chris Grant and Coach Byron Scott. I thought losing 26 games in a row last year was unacceptable. At times, Scott seemed to coach as if he had a free pass on the season. They may not be fair to him, but I expected more from this tea than 19 wins. The best part of the "Decision" in my opinion, is it afforded the Cavs an opportunity to get meaningful floor time to others. The end result...Alonzo Gee, Ramon Sessions, Samardo Samuels, and at times Ryan Hollins.

It also allowed Hickson to show what he was truly capable of, when given a true OPPORTUNITY, unfortunately, he apparently didn't show the Cavs enough, or he showed enough to pry Omri Casspi from the Sacramento bench.

5. Scott is very upbeat. and he should be... He has an UNSELFISH, potential superstar, who at only 19 years of age, displays the leadership of a 4 year veteran. Tristan Thompson is 20, Alonzo Gee is 24, Samardo Samuels is 23, and both Daniel Gibson, and Ramon Sessions are 25. That's a very young core base, moving forward. The only thing missing in my mind, is J.J. Hickson, who's also ONLY 23.

Thompson is becoming more comfortable, and aware, with more time on the floor. Its quite possible he hasn't finished growing yet, and could very well grow a couple more inches. He plays bigger than he is, and could very well be a C on the floor, preferably with an elbow down, scoring PF. I think the energy, and hustle of Varejao, has rubbed off on the team, and they all follow his example when on the floor.

6. Scott on Varejao being out for 4-6 weeks with a broken wrist: "There aren't five guys who play as hard as he does ... maybe not even two." I'm not sure what game Scott is watching, unless he's just throwing Varejao a bone. I've yet to see a guy take the floor, and not give maximum effort. I think Thompson should start at C, with Varejao coming off the bench when he returns. If Varejao, somehow gets moved at the deadline, his production, can be replaced, and I don't think TEAM energy, effort, or hustle, leaves with him. I like the sense of direction this team has, moving forward.

7. Big men are like pitchers in baseball, teams want a lot of them -- and good ones are rare in a league increasingly ruled by point guards and wing players. Dwight Howard is the last of the dominant big men. After Howard, I'd say Andrew Bynum is next, followed by Roy Hibbert, then everyone else, is just tall. With Howard, you defend him best, by crowding him, making him uncomfortable, pushing him to the bring of frustration, not by hacking, or fouling him, which only angers him, and motivates him to take his level of play, to the next plateau.

8. Most teams are playing 6-10 power forwards such as Varejao at center. Varejao is 6'11" 260lbs. C is by far, his most EFFECTIVE position on the floor. Most teams, don't have dominant big men in the middle, it isn't a position of strength league wide. PF is more so that position. Anderson Varejao doesn't have a favorable match-up, on either end of the floor vs most starting NBA starters, at the PF position. On the other hand, as was mentioned, at the C position, there's Dwight Howard, and everyone else.

The NBA landscape is changing, its more up tempo, more athletic, but if you have a solid big, its an advantage. Semih Erden is very intriguing in that regards. He's a true C, but when's he's on the court, you have to go through him, utilize him at his strengths. It makes no sense of running him up, and down the court, without so much as a look, let alone touches in the post. You put defensive pressure on the opposition, by going to him there.

The Cavs made the same mistake with Shaq. The one thing no other team in the NBA could account for, was Shaq's size, and presence. Instead of utilizing him as a source of strength, they used him as a matter of convenience. He was here to provide the Cavs with what they lacked most, and yet he struggled to get shots, as James, and Mo Williams shot more.

9. Remember the Delonte West deal with Minnesota? After all the pieces landed, the Cavs have Ramon Sessions, Ryan Hollins and Erden to show for it. I thought they FINALLY found a PG in Sessions, the February he had last season, as well as how he performed, when given true opportunities, were enough for me. From the moment the Cavs acquired him, I said he was the best PG on the roster. He was saddled behind Mo Williams, until he was eventually traded.

I would like to see better floor combinations, Scott make better adjustments. The injury to Varejao, has forced some to be made, with good results. I'd like to see Hollins om the floor more with Samuels, or Samuels o the floor with Thompson. I don;t particularly like Casspi, and Jamison on the floor together, especially starting games. Both are for the most part, jump shooters, who defend poorly. You can't function with 2/3 of the front court, playing on the perimeter.

I'm glad to finally see Scott playing Sessions, and Irving more together. I've been high on Sessions from the moment they made the acquisition to get him. Sessions has been nothing but a team player, all things considered. They can co-exist together. They both bring different elements to the floor, but they both can play off the ball, and get to the basket, on just about anyone.

Its media or so called experts, that want Sessions moved. The Cavs are in a position to pay him, and keep him, it could be a situation that's win/win for all involved parties. In that regards, the ball is clearly in the Cavs hands. I look forward to seeing more of Thompson, and Samuels on the floor. I've also wondered why Eyenga hasn't been used on the defensive end more. I'd rather have him defending in key situations, than Casspi.

10. The Cavs talked about bringing up Manny Harris from Canton, but Scott likes Irving and Sessions playing together in the backcourt -- and they want to look at Ben Uzoh during this time when Daniel Gibson and Anthony Parker are hurt. Well Ben Uzoh, didn't get a look. I thought vs Sacramento would have been the perfect opportunity, to play him, as a more physical PG on Tyreke Evens.

At times, fatigue seemed to set in, or the Cavs just simply just got careless with the ball, and settled for jump shots. It was Milwaukee waiting to happen, all over again. I'm glad to see Manny Harris back with the team, hopefully he will get the opportunity to show his value, and that he belongs here.

What I like most about Harris, is his versatility on both ends of the floor. He rebounds well, has range, length, can create his own shot, and he handles the ball well.

For all things Cleveland Cavaliers, and NBA basketball, follow me on twitter @CLECavsOutsider

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Comments

A very nice introduction to the FanPosts Keith. I must say I disagree wholeheartedly with everything you said in point 6 though!

I’ve been an advocate for a long time of keeping Sessions if it is doable and I’ve been begging Scott to pair him with Irving for quite awhile so I very much stand by your comments in that regard.

With or Without the H

by johnf34 on Feb 22, 2012 12:06 PM CST reply actions

@johnf34 What about point 6 do you disagree with? Vareajo is having a career best 10.8 PPG/11.5 REB per game, 7 years in. The Cavaliers have bettered his offensive production, EASILY, in fact at times, have bettered it. Erden gave them 18/8 vs Indiana, Erden/Thompson gave them 18/10 vs Miami, Thompson 15/12 vs Sacramento, while Gee has had games of 17/6, 9/9, and 16/11 in Varejaos absence. The Cavaliers have also gone 3-2 in the 5 games Varejao has missed.

Varejao is not a shut down defender, so to think he would have made a difference in losses vs Miami, and Philadelphia (back to back) defensively, or offensively, for that matter, is very UNREALISTIC.

In regards to the hustle, and energy Varejao provides, who hasn’t hustled, when given an opportunity to be on the floor? Its hustle that only allowed them to be outscore by 3 in the final 3 quarters vs Miami, after trailing by 21 after the 1st. Its also hustle that got them past Detroit, after trailing by as many as 17 in the 3rd quarter.

So please…tell me what I’ve missed….

by CLECavsOutsider on Feb 22, 2012 4:41 PM CST reply actions

If you watched the game tonight it shows why we need Vareajo. Chris Kaman and Gustavo Ayon dominated on the glass and Kaman had a good amount of points too. You cannot realistically believe that Hollins, Erden, Harangody or Samuels can be a player on this team after this season. While I do believe Thompson could potentially be a center for us, it may take a while for him to fit into that. Varejao would not have let New Orleans get as many offensive rebounds as they did and I really don’t think you can deny that.

by tdubbs12 on Feb 22, 2012 10:31 PM CST up reply actions

@tdubbs12 Varejao would not have made a difference, he isn’t a shut down defender. What hurt the Cavs most, is they didn’t attack, or challenge Kaman, or Ayon in the post. When they went to Hollins, he was fouled. same with Thompson. What hurt the Cavs also, is they continuously play 1 elbow down player on the floor, surrounded by jump shooters, which limit multiple shot opportunities.

Not only did they shoot the ball terribly from the floor, 31.8%, but they shot 6-27 from 3P (22.2%), and 24-37 FT (64.9%) in a game they only lost by 5 points. Instead of trying to make Varejao out to be more than what he effectively is, how about the starting 5 shot 15-53 FG, and 4-22 3P. Hollins actually played well, Kaman missed 15 shots, and only attempted 1 FT, so he was being DEFENDED, not HACKED.

Hollins is most effective, when on the floor with an elbow down PF, capable of scoring, Samuels is that person, he has the best low post skill set, is physical around the basket, and yet he was a DNP? Harangody was on the floor for over 6 MINS, and actually got 5 FGA? The one thing Manny Harris showed he could do, before being called up, is knock down shots, get to the basket, and finish, and yet he once again logged a DNP, while Gibson shot 1-9?

I agree with you, Thompson could potentially be the teams C moving forward, but he also has to be on the floor, with an elbow down, scoring PF. Varejao would have had no impact, If anything, Kaman may have had more success vs him, and Ayon is a physical, elbow down player, he would have in a sense, been over-matched. He also chases along the perimeter, so more than likely would have been out of position to prevent them form offensive rebounds.

I have said this time, and time again, Scott’s line-ups, substitution patterns, and lack of adjustments, is hard not to notice. He started Mychel Thompson for 3 games, when he was the last essentially the last man to make the roster, and wasn’t even a part of the rotation, and yet as the TEAM struggled shooting the ball, he went to Harangody, as opposed to Harris?

I don’t see Harangody here, maybe even as soon as after the All-Star break, he just doesn’t bring anything. What the Cavaliers lack, is an effective low post scorer, who puts pressure on opposing defenses. I deny that with both hands… appreciate the feedback

by CLECavsOutsider on Feb 22, 2012 11:35 PM CST up reply actions

I might agree with you that he is not a shut down defender but I do believe he is an elite rebounder which is a huge part of defense and would have definitely held down both Kaman and Ayon’s offensive and defensive rebound numbers. Limiting their second chance points and getting more second chance of our own may have been enough to make up 5 points in a game where we shot the ball horribly.

My point is Varejao, at this point, is by far the best big man we have on our team. He was playing the best basketball of his career and seemed to have something going with Kyrie until he got hurt. He has improved his mid range shot a ton and now defenders have to guard that. Along with that he was looking great on the pick and roll and has a very good touch around the rim. Although he is not a post up center, in my opinion he has the ability to be a starting center for a championship team which should be the main focus. Until is Thompson is more consistent, adds to his post moves, and cuts back on fouls, there is no reason to have our best big man on our bench. Not when he averages a double double and is only getting better.

In regards to the game tonight, as I said, we just played really bad basketball and shot the ball poorly. I agree that we should have seen Harris in there tonight. We had a game last night which happened to be Boobie’s first game back from his recent injury. To go along with that, he didn’t shoot the ball well. I don’t see any reason why Scott didn’t put Harris in. Also, I was baffled by Scott playing Harangody in the fourth quarter when the game matters most. All I see in him is an undersized, slow, and nonathletic big man. I guess besides his hustle I just don’t see any reason to play him (which really makes me wonder how he was so good in college). Play him in the first 3 quarters to give someone a break but do not put him in when the game is on the line.

by tdubbs12 on Feb 23, 2012 12:14 AM CST up reply actions

Varejao is not a shit down defender, he is an incredible help defender. He isn’t an elite rebounder, he does however position himself to get long rebounds, and rebounds uncontested. He plys the ball off the rim well, but he has plenty of opportunities, because he’s on the floor surrounded by jump shooters. Kaman, and Ayon would have physically overpowered Varejao. For one, he would have been battling them both under the basket. What would have best made up the point differential, was the missed free throws.

I disagree with Varejao being the best big man on the team, he’s the big man who at 10.8 PPG/11.5 REB is having a career year. I think Thompson is a better around the basket, on his feet, on the ball defender than Varejao. Where Varejao reads the ball off the rim, Thompson has the ability to go and get it. He has great anticipation in blocking shots, and great recovery. His problem has at times has been, he rushes himself when he has the ball around the basket. While he’s decisive in what he wants to do, he sometimes does so erratically. His inability to make FT’s makes him a prime candidate to send to the line, and a risk to have on the floor at the end of games.

I think Samardo Samuels has a better offensive skill set than Varejao, or Thompson around the basket. He is physical on the defensive end, at times does so with a mean streak, which you want. Why he hasn’t gotten more time, and opportunities on the floor, is beyond me. I agree, Varejao is having the best year of his career, but it doesn’t make him an All-Star, and I don’t want him as the 3rd option on my team.

I want him to bring energy, hustle, be disruptive, finish around the basket when he has opportunities, and defend. He’s 6’11" 260 lbs, and finally averaging a double/double. I like Varejao, but I can’t make him out to be more than what he is. He has a place on this team, but I have no problem moving him, or trading him. I’m a firm believer that you can get what he brings elsewhere. Varejao had 6 points in over 60 minutes, in 2 games vs NJ, particularly stands out.

Varejao was the stating C on the Cavaliers, and they were a championship caliber team. His numbers in the playoffs are actually lower, than the regular season. He could be the starting C, or PF on a championship team if he was the worst player of the 5, not the 2nd best player, or even the 3rd. Thompson is the future, you play him now, allow him to work through his mistakes, the same way Irving is being allowed to do so. Varejao coming off the bench, gives him more favorable match-ups, at both ends of the floor. At 29, he will never be more than what he is right now. I lean more towards upside.

It wasn’t getting out-rebounded that cost the Cavs, they shot terribly. From the floor, 3 point range, and the free throw line. Failure to make adjustments falls directly on the coach. To watch Gibson shoot 1-9? When you made a point to bring Harris up before the All-Star break, and then not play him? Harris played significant time last year, its not like bringing Uzoh up, and then hesitating in using him, This is particularly disturbing, when you start Thompson for 3 games, when he wasn’t even a part of the rotation, and is now by the way, no longer with the team.

In games like this, you don’t bring in other spot up shooters, and Harangody missed around the basket, because he’s uncomfortable being there. He isn’t going to help you on the defensive end, so once again, why no Samuels? I can’t see the Cavaliers going much further with Harangody. Maybe I’m missing something….I just don’t see what he brings. The next 2-3 weeks will be crucial.

by CLECavsOutsider on Feb 24, 2012 7:33 PM CST up reply actions

Losing Sessions, or trading him would hurt far more than losing Varejao for 4-6 weeks. Samuels, who is by far the Cavs best low post scorer, has seen limited minutes, Jamison, has done a better job of attacking the basket, getting to line more, though he hasn’t made the most of those opportunities. Sessions logged 37 assists, starting in the place of Irving. He also got the better of Paul (LAC) in the process.

As much as most like Irving, he doesn’t possess a 3 game stretch like that at all this season. His season high has been 8, and he plays 30.8 MPG. Sessions plays 25.3 MPG, has 3 double digit assist games, and his season high (16) doubles that of Irving. The Cavs are CLEARLY BETTER with them both.

Even with Irving missing 3 games (concussion) He’s played 72 more minutes than Sessions, yet has 37 fewer assist, and 22 more turnovers. Sessions is a facilitator first, and is a better decision maker with the basketball. I hope the Cav’s keep Sessions, and make every effort to bring him back next year.

They make an incredible 1-2 combo at the position

by CLECavsOutsider on Feb 22, 2012 4:56 PM CST reply actions

i dont think Sessions is a better distributor than Kyrie. I would point to three things, small in nature, perhaps, that might account for the statistical differences. 1) it seems to me like Sessions spends less time on the court with Casspi. Omri is shooting 29% from 3, and i feel like if i had a nickel for every time Irving got him a wide open look that he missed I would be a rich man. 2) Sessions doesnt finish at the rim like Kyrie does, and, despite improvement, doesnt shoot as well generally as Kyrie does. This means that situations where Sessions might look to drop the ball off to Jamison after driving would involve Kyrie just taking it himself. 3) Kyrie’s minutes have often come at the end of games when he is the primary scorer, and quite frankly isnt looking to distribute the ball. the results have been pretty good.

The “we need to keep Sessions” discussions are irrelevant. HE WANTS TO LEAVE. If we dont trade him, he has already said he will opt out of his deal. If you want to offer him a huge contract that goes beyond what anyone else can give him and hope that money trumps his desire to start somewhere, good luck. But I dont want Kyrie playing consistent minutes at SG, I dont want the lackluster defense from having both Kyrie and Sessions on the court, and I dont want to pay Sessions 8 million dollars a year when he wont even be on the court at the end of fourth quarters in games that matter.

by davidzavac on Feb 23, 2012 9:32 AM CST reply actions

i do like him as a player/human being/etc. but I love Kyrie, he can start and be really good, and we have big, gaping holes elsewhere. and i think your analysis on Varejao is spot on. It wasnt that long ago that Leon Powe, Kendrick Perkins, Big Baby, etc. were scoring on Varejao at will in the playoffs. Great on rotations, energy, rebounding, and surprisingly great hands, good free throw shooting, good pick and roll player. He is worth the money we give him, I dont want to trade him unless we can get ALOT back, but on the ball he struggles a little bit

by davidzavac on Feb 23, 2012 9:41 AM CST up reply actions

@davidzavic Sessions has more assists, and fewer turnovers than Irving, how is he not a better distributor, facilitator, or better decision maker with the basketball, than Irving? 1. I have to disagree with you there, Irving is on the floor with scorers, now Irving may not get them the ball in good scoring position, When Sessions started in place of Irving, he was on the floor with the same unit, and had 37 assists in those 3 games. 2 Sessions attacks the rim more than Irving, Irving just started attacking the basket, his early shot selection, was much to be desired. Sessions gets to the FT line more than any starter, in fewer minutes. While I agree, i’d like to see him finish more, take the contact, instead of anticipating the whistle, I think they’ve missed a bout the same, You just see Irvings finishes on sportscenter, A PG gets shots for others first, not look for his shot, and if he can’t get it, dump it off to someone else, and hope they make it. Irving was a shoot first PG at Duke. Irving hasn’t been the primary scorer, at the end of games, he’s had a couple games as of late, where he got hot, and they rode the hot hand, I didn’t see him make an impact in the last game, what was he 2-13 FG?

How can you say keeping Sessions is irrelevant? He hasn’t demanded a trade, even when he’s basically been treated like a step brother, he’s been professional, supported Irving, and helped with his development. I hadn’t even heard him say he would opt out, its been ASSUMED he would do so, with an opportunity get a multi-year deal, and for more money. That’s good business sense. If, and when he opts out, the Cavaliers can still make an offer to retain him, if they choose to do so. Because he has the ability to opt out, the Cavaliers won’t be able to demand a kings ransom in trading him.

I say Sessions could go to at least 6-8 teams, and start. Lakers being at the top of the list, Kidd is getting up in age in Dallas, NY Knicks before Lin, tough it appears Davis has recovered from that bad back… Nash also getting up in age in Phoenix, Felton is struggling in Portland, I think he was just replaced in the starting line-up by Crawford, Parker getting up in age in San Antonio, and I personally think he would be an upgrade in places like Toronto, Orlando, and possibly Atlanta. Either way, he would have options.

Its not about Irving playing significant minutes at SG, he was taking more shots than whomever started at SG, and almost as much as the position in total. Playing him off the ball, keeps him fresh at the ends of games, limits his turnovers due to fatigue, while keeping him on the floor. You don’t have to label him a SG, he would just be on the floor with another PG. No different than Billups, and Paul playing together in LAC. Irving has struggled the most defensively, and Sessions has been closing games out. Sessions hasn’t said anything about 8 million, though he could very easily command 5- million.

Scott’s line-ups, rotations, and substitutions, have left much to be desired, Depending on the situation, I don’t want Casspi, or Jamison on the floor, if I need a defensive stop. Most PF will take Jamison right to the basket, as Cousins did, when SAC was here. I want Thompson for his ability to block shots, and challenge shooters, Gee has to be on the floor, as well then its match-ups, and combinations. Irving has already on occasion struggled with fatigue, who’s going to run point, Gibson??

by CLECavsOutsider on Feb 24, 2012 8:13 PM CST up reply actions

one more note on the “Irving has 37 less assists, 22 more turnovers” things. Ramon is gonna be 26 in a month and a half. not old at at all, but it does give him 6 full years on our rookie point guard who played 11 games last season

by davidzavac on Feb 23, 2012 9:43 AM CST reply actions

Sessions has never been hurt or injured, so he has fresh legs, PG’s are conditioned for the long haul. Sessions could play in the league, and be serviceable, another 8-10 years. 26 isn’t old at all, he sure hasn’t been laboring. You need experienced players, so in that regards alone, he has value. I like Sessions, liked him form the moment the acquired him. I keep hearing people making references to what Hickson isn’t doing in Sacramento, totally irrelevant. Its what he could, and would be doing in Cleveland, if afforded the same time and opportunity, to close last season. Where will veteran leadership come form, Next year, Varejao will be the highest paid, and most tenured, if he’s still here, does that make him the leader?

by CLECavsOutsider on Feb 24, 2012 8:33 PM CST reply actions